Tell me ... what IS funny?

topic posted Wed, May 11, 2005 - 9:41 AM by  Mahl E.
Comedy: Is it timing; is it crafty content ... is it getting people to see the futility of their circumstances in a light hearted manner?

Is comedy slowly built up irreverent punch lines skewering the universally accepted? Is comedy an immediately realization of something you haven't thought of before?

Is comedy sarcasm piled up so high it just barely makes sense? Is comedy detailing unlikely scenarios and then inserting these into everyday life?

Tell me, what is comedy?
posted by:
Mahl E.
  • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

    Wed, May 11, 2005 - 10:09 AM
    For me, Comedy is merely turning the focus on what exists already in life.

    Actual unlikely scenarios, the absurdity of some Universally accepted premises, an immediate realization that what you've been doing/seeing/tasting/screwing is a complete 180 degree departure of what you *WANT* to be doing/seeing/tasting/screwing.

    Shock for the sake of shock is trite, sarcasm that is indecipherable in it's depths is narcissistic.

    A sketch about a person who was completely shocking for no reason whatsoever, and piles on allusion, innuendo, and vitriol so deep that nobody ever has a clue as to what he's talking about, now that's comedy... :)
    • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

      Wed, May 11, 2005 - 10:24 AM
      Excellent! Can comedy be universal then or is it something to which the absurd must have a polar opposite application?

      Think: Monty Python's John Cleese after a very silly sketch, looking into the camera and stating, "And now for something completely different." That would fall flat in the States but is very funny in the UK.

      Allusion, innuendo and vitriol need a standard (cultural?) by which they must measure. Is going outside this standard to the appropriate degree comedy?
      • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

        Wed, May 11, 2005 - 11:16 AM
        John Cleese is, or at least was, a big admirer of a philosopher named Henri Bergson ( www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bergson.htm ) who said that comedy was a social response against inflexible thought and behavior. Now, Bergson was arguably a racist prick, to judge from his approval of minstrel shows, but I think he was onto something with his basic idea.

        Desmond Morris was probably a lot closer to the mark when he placed the origin of laughter with a mother playing peekaboo with her baby. Mommy puts her hands over her face. Where's mommy gone? Baby thinks "Mommy's gone, and that's scary...but she's not REALLY gone, so it's okay...and I don't know WHAT to think!" The mental conflict can't be resolved, and baby laughs. Apparently, this is true in every culture and society.

        Marty Feldman (I think) said that four gorillas acting like gorillas weren't funny, but four gorillas sitting in a cafe calmly sipping tea was funny. Funnier still would be three gorillas sipping tea in a cafe, with a regular businessman also sitting there and trying desperately not to notice that he's surrounded by gorillas. The tension between the obvious reality and his need not to acknowledge it is where comedy comes from.

        If the guy leaped up and shouted "Oh God, wild gorillas!" that wouldn't be funny. But him staying put and hesitantly asking "Um...er...can you...pass the sugar?" and cringing in terror for fear that he's upset a gorilla...that's funny.

        If there's a universal principle of comedy, I think it must lie in the above: some kind of tension, some kind of conflict between something that's "wrong" and someone responding to it in an inappropriate way. If our minds can't resolve the conflict any other way, we laugh just like the baby with the magically disappearing mother.
        • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

          Wed, May 11, 2005 - 12:36 PM
          Yes, yes ... YES! That's what I keep hearing from others; there is a tension either, dormant or attenuated by the writer / comedian, which is necessarily breached to provide comedy.

          But as you say ... and again I (an American) find it often with British comedy there is the maintain-the-social-construct-at-all-costs which is the common denominator in this type of humor. You see it quite often in Monty Python's Flying Circus (Ministry of Silly Walks) and in their film productions, "Holy Grail" (the Knights who say Ni) and "Life of Brian" (“Could you be quiet, please? What was that?” “I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".”), for instance. Take it further to Peter Seller's portrayal of the French Inspector Jacques Clouseau where the humor is in awkward fumbling but painfully trying to maintain the social apropos in the circumstance while other characters are NOT pointing out what's inappropriately taking place (as when Clouseau spins a globe, looks out the window, confidently states, "We must find that woman," and places his hand back on the globe - and it immediately throws him to the floor).

          Back to Americana and its offerings to comedy. Henny Youngman violated the standard comedic formula (introduction, set up, punch line) the first time he uttered merely four words, "Take may wife ... please!" and I have wondered if American humor can be based on a bait-and-switch type of set up. Fast forward to George Carlin’s offering of the status quo and then attacking with a concise, aggressive conclusion not many people consider (“I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.”). Another example is an understated Stephen Wright who also will begin by randomly detailing what we culturally accept as the norm yet leading to a conclusion which one has not initially considered (“I went to a restaurant that serves "breakfast at any time". So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.”)

          I like your idea of "inappropriate" because that leads me to think of Bill Hicks and, of course, Lenny Bruce. Is can you also use the words “original” and “insightful” in your sentence which says, “some kind of tension, some kind of conflict between something that's "wrong" and someone responding to it in an inappropriate way”?

          This is the heart of the matter which I am trying to uncover here. I think the more one understands, what is funny and why it is funny to the largest possible audience, a person can become an extremely effective comedy writer.
          • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

            Wed, May 11, 2005 - 12:59 PM
            Dammit ... no "edit" function so I amend my
            ______________________
            "to Peter Seller's portrayal" should read, "to Peter Sellers' portrayal"

            and

            "Is can you also use the words" should read, "Can you also use the words"

      • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

        Wed, May 11, 2005 - 11:30 AM
        >Can comedy be universal then
        ...
        >Allusion, innuendo and vitriol need a standard (cultural?)

        I think it is very much Cultural. There are some Universal targets that one could leverage (Creationism, belief in Dieties, Love, Progeny) that may reach most cultures, but as you've witnessed with British Comedy on American Audiences, there are cultural influences at work in determining what is funny.

        To wit, Rape is a subject that will rarely find an analog in western Comedy. Hell, it will probably not find it's way into Comedy in most cultures, but there could be an audience out there where women are truly nothing more than chattel, and a bumbling would-be rapist may be the epitome of an Arlequino styled character. It would be the Yardstick of "the norm" by which the character is measured.


        >or is it something to which the absurd must have a polar opposite application?

        As for John Cleese's famous line, I think it's double, or even triple entendre at work. John Cleese is the straight man. The more absurd the message, the funnier it gets with deadpan delivery, as the greater dichotomy exists.

        Additionally his role is defined by your interpetation of his message. This is a way to reach across those different cultural identities, as everyone will find something different about it to laugh at:

        "...and now for something completely different..."

        1. He is stating the truth, as in "This skit is over, and now here's something else." i.e. The News Anchor

        2. He is stating the truth in a different way, as in "Here's yet another situation which you are unlikely to ever see, but is wholly plausible." i.e. The Narrator

        3. He is telling the truth, and is trying to get you to understand him personally, as in "Here's something inane to balance out what you just saw, because I'm truly serious about the bit I just did." i.e. The Naive, Arrogant Actor

        4. He is lying, and using sarcasm, as in "Like anything you ever see in this show is normal. This next bit is no different from the rest." i.e. The Writer

        #1, 2 or 3 is why *he* can say it straight. Everyone is going to identify with either the Truth or Lie within the juxtaposition, and laugh at the polar opposite, or interpret #4 and laugh at the clever writer.

        For John Cleese personally, he very much considered himself a consummate serious actor, and actually grew to detest the routines, which made his "straightness" even stronger, as there was a little piece of him trying to really reach through it all. He came to terms with it, and grew to love it more, but it's what gave him strength.

        Similarly, Leslie Nielsen's strengths as the straight man were due to his extensive experience in serious drama. He pursued all of his comedies with an attitude of "I'm going to do this role as if I am completley unaware there is comedy afoot", and that is why he pulls off the role so well. The audience begins to feel that he is a buffoon, because he just doesn't see what's going on around him.

        >Is going outside this standard to the appropriate degree comedy?

        Hard to say. If you stray outside for too long, you lose your audience, or at least cater to a smaller one. If you step over the line, stick out your tongue and blow a Rasberry at the line, you'll probably still keep of few of the Conservatives entertained.

        If you run across the line, don't look back, and start exploring the sound of the color Green, your audience gets kind of lost, as you've wandered into the land of Actor-bation.
        • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

          Wed, May 11, 2005 - 12:55 PM
          Yes again! The meaning within meaning within meaning (“I think it's double, or even triple entendre at work.”) is very hard to write but works extremely well if you understand your audience. An example would be from ‘The Simpsons’ and the episode where Homer invents the drink dubbed “The Flaming Moe”. Firstly, “Moe” is an audible twist on “mo” which is short for “homo” or “homosexual” and now doubled with “flaming” is hilarious in itself. Then you have bartender Moe Szyslak , after drinking Homer’s concoction for the first time, stating: “It feels like there's a party in my mouth and everyone’s invited!”, when the truly crass among us know the line goes, "It feels like there's a party in my mouth and everyone’s coming!" which is an overt reference to oral sex.

          ‘The Simpsons’ writers are successful in targeting their audience’s cultural expectations and then violating these on more than one level in order to get the laugh. Oddly enough, ‘The Simpsons’ is very well received in the UK, although I am not sure if specifically the Britons find the Simpson characters plausible and convenient stereotypes of Americans (as comedy) or if they culturally understand the “double, or even triple entendre at work” contextually (as comedy).

          Perhaps we’ll never know ….
          • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

            Wed, May 11, 2005 - 1:16 PM
            I think with the Simpsons, there is an even more important structure at work that taps straight into our European roots, and that is it's basis in Commedia. The Character Archetypes have been with us for almost a thousand years, and we're merely fitting a new name on a situation we'e all quite familiar with:

            Bart = Arlequino, Young, mischievous Antagonist

            Homer = Capitano, Blustering, drunken, arrogant fool

            Burns = Pantalone, Wicked, Miserly Jew (while not specifically Jewish in the Simpsons, his facial features are the same, hook nose, pointed chin, hand wringing).

            Etc....

            It's formulaic, and culturally accessible across a broad audience.
            • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

              Wed, May 11, 2005 - 2:16 PM
              It’s formulaic, and culturally accessible across a broad audience.
              So, eh…… the universal archetypes at play as per Carl Jung and later Joseph Campbell? Here is where I think a gifted writer can produce comedy which gets outside the regional offerings such as New York humor (think: Saturday Night Live) or Canadian comedy like what we watched on “Second City TV” (“Don't touch that dial! Don't touch that one either! And stop touching yourself! SCTV is on the air!”).
              So, given what everyone has offered, is there a common denominator of social tension which can be addressed and then crossed in an appropriately “inappropriate” and original manner? Is ‘The Simpsons’ the first to do this effectively? Like all cultural icons, was Lenny Bruce spot on in understanding and conveying comedy but merely ahead of his time? What about Bill Hicks and his growing up in the US but doing very well in Europe as a social commentary comedian; Bill was barely a blip on the entertainment radar screen when he performed in the States?

              And, I too, was going to point out Jerry Lewis’ success in France but my post was going on way too long. I should take lessons in brevity, no?
          • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

            Wed, May 11, 2005 - 1:22 PM
            One of the funniest lines ever on television was "It's like there's a party in my mouth...and everyone's throwing up!"

            When it comes to cultural differences in comedy, the key is to figure out what story that culture tells about itself, and its humor comes from observations which challenge that story. Naturally, the "maintain the social order at all costs" attitude is a strong motivator in British comedy. And we Americans have enough of that conservatism in our own culture to enjoy the jokes based on that attitude.

            Not everything makes the transition across the pond: I've seen painfully awful British sitcoms on PBS where the joke was the comic relief having a lower-class or regional accent...because, like, it's inherently funny when those people don't know their place and keep aspiring to act like their social betters. :-P

            And I've always suspected that the French love of Jerry Lewis is tied in with that thing I mentioned above about Bergson loving blackface minstrels. There's a certain cultural arrogance in the attitude of "other races are imbeciles compared to us, let's laugh at their foolishness" -- a modern American would want to identify with the goofy moron and cheer for him to win in the end.

            I'm trying to think what an American cultural axiom might be that our national taste in humor specifically challenges. Maybe our deference to religion and political institutions and the authoritative voice of television?

            BTW, I agree with everything else that's been said in this thread so far!
            • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

              Wed, May 11, 2005 - 2:49 PM
              There's a certain cultural arrogance in the attitude of "other races are imbeciles compared to us, let's laugh at their foolishness"
              ____________________________________
              Yes and I believe the more tense the times are (economically, politically, socially) the more you see this type of humor as it is very unifying to a group of people looking for an identity of "better than".

              Now, do we move on to what is funny…. when? Why is much of Bob Hope's material very funny in the 1940s (radio bits and his "Road" movies) but horribly corny now? If we use the idea of universal and enduring archetypes, shouldn't there be a comprehensive theme which can be perpetually addressed by re-inventing the way the comedy is presented? As you write, "figure out what story that culture tells about itself" aren't there some stories which will always apply to what is culturally important and if so, what are they and will they work as the foundations for building the set up and launching the punch line?

              My guess is political-leaders-as-bumbling-fools is coming to a close as what Americans think of as comedy. Instead of being legitimately hilarious (Dan Aykroyd as Jimmy Carter circa 1977, Will Ferrell as George W. Bush saying, “strategory”) when the details are done well, now this type of thinking is just the standard general perception. There is no tension, thus no line to cross.

              I look at something like the movie, “Office Space” and think why it works. There is the constant repetitive theme saying, “Everyone is assigning too much value to everything, when it is all just nothing in the the end” (Milton and his all-important red Swingline stapler, or the redundant copies of the cover memo for the TPS reports). Could this type of comedy work in a culture so heavily dependent on perpetual consumerism? Buy more, acquire more … SUVs, PDAs, designer living, second homes … when at the heart of it somewhere people know none of this really is relevant. I just wonder if the futility is apparent of if people’s identities are too closely tied for them to laugh at this point.

              Also my Jerry Lewis comment was directed to you and meant to appear here and not in my previous post …oooops!
              • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

                Wed, May 11, 2005 - 3:46 PM
                >Could this type of comedy work in a culture so heavily >dependent on perpetual consumerism?

                There's a Comedic goldmine right there in that one sentence:

                "Lincoln is proud to present the ulimate vessel of Conspicuous Consuption.

                Introducing the 'Hermitage', the latest in Convenient and Rugged Transportation.

                No more waiting for "Two Dollar" tuesday at the Gas Station, and no more pesky Arabs getting your hard earned money to fund terrorist camps!

                We've eliminated the middle Man entirely, the 'Hermitage' runs on $20 dollar bills! Simply crack open that wallet, and fill 'er up.

                2 Miles per Dollar City, 4 Miles per Dollar Highway, 1 Dollar per Foot (Bay Area). Mileage on Euros and Yen may vary.
                • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

                  Thu, May 12, 2005 - 5:32 AM
                  Exactly ... and the comedy comes from detailed sarcastic minimizing the overwhelming cultural crises, political turmoil and thus COMMERCIAL turmoil (i.e. car companies, household spending rising with gasoline purchases, OPEC's current intention on holding oil prices constant for the next 3 years, and low-mileage vehicles laying waste to natural resources, air and fossil fuels).

                  So can that be effective contemporary comedy? "Sorry to inconvenience you Mr. American. Your consumption is so out of proportion on a per-capita global scale that we'll just kill ourselves so you can have our share too; I'll make sure to use the silencer on my gun to keep things quiet and hold the plastic bag over my head so the authorities won't have to clean up the mess. Have a nice day!"

                  Can you also show the disregard for improvement and the American insistence on the familiar (status quo)?

                  ANNOUNCER: Hi, we are here in downtown Chicago / Houston / Phoenix / Pittsburgh today to tell people about the new hydrogen-powered vehicles we’re introducing to the market new year. Excuse me sir, yes … how likely are you to purchase our new automobile which runs solely on hydrogen?

                  **VERY quick individual sound bites follow from professionally-dressed white men in their mid 30’s. Run each man’s video clip right into the next man’s clip in a montage style**

                  “Well, can it go over 55 miles per hour? Because … like.. I’m not driving anything that’s slow.”
                  “I don’t know, I just got into this SUV lease and … well… I’m not sure”
                  “Does it look stupid? I mean is it one of those odd-looking battery type cars?”
                  “Its not small is it?”
                  “I’d have to wait a while and see what other people think of it. I mean, c’mon! I don’t want to be the only guy at work with a Hydro-car. People will laugh…”
                  “What if I plug my cell phone in while I am driving? Will the car decelerate to under 40 miles per hour? Haaahahahhahhaaa”
                  “What colors does it come in and does it have leather interior?”
                  “Sunroof or no?”
                  “This isn’t a Yugo is it?”
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

                    Thu, May 12, 2005 - 10:16 AM
                    I think you've hit the nail on the head for Americans. We've got a society that is inches away from making Condiments with antibacterial agents added in, we're terrified of washing a possibly poo-covered toilet brush with some bleach, "hey let's make 'em disposable", packaging, brand name obsessed disposable society that is too damn lazy to do anything for itself.

                    My soon-to-be ex-wife gets some $300/ounce perfume from Barney's, I end up on their mailing list, and am aghast when I find inside a tweed coat that looks like it came off of some Philosophy Professor in the 70's, the same coat I can pick up in the local Goodwill for 10 bucks on sale for a mere $3,600 dollars.

                    There is a reason I hold mankind with such disdain.... :)
            • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

              Wed, May 11, 2005 - 3:26 PM
              I think you've named a lot of innovators in comedy, and they *do* stand out from the norm in that their methods are contrary to most others in their field.

              Henny Youngman was an innovator of the one-liner. Very little directly-spoken-to-audience comedy solo acts are in use up until the early 20th century. Solo comedy was primarily situation based physical comedy. Harold Lloyd, Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, Red Skelton and Danny Kaye are (vaguely... :) contemporary illustrations of this type of routine.

              Team comedy from the Vaudeville era was what built the spoken routines of contemporary life. I think the use of monologue in Theater gave rise the idea of removing the wall and simply "talking" to the audience.

              Henny Youngman then ditched the idea of needing a straight man to bounce off of, and simply built the stand up routine.

              Carlin, Young, and Gallagher are all masters of observational irony. They are taking the role of the straight man to the nth degree, and just pushing the bounds of "routine thought". It's also a comfort to the viewer that whenever they worry they might be odd, and not fitting into "THE NORM", you have the presence of these characters whose idea of normal is positively bizarre, therefore you *must* be normal after all... :)

              Yup, juxtaposition is the key... :)

              As far as cultural "hooks", and comedic choices in regards to your audience, I'll provide an example pulled from one or two people right here on this list. I'll leave it anonymous, but if they wish to sound off, it would be great to hear their thoughts on the choices.

              Premise: Charlatan selling bogus medicine

              Setup: Doctor pitches medicine, and is demonstrating product. The patient suffering from some malady drinks the potion and goes deaf.

              Great setup, classic Vaudeville routine, and I fully admit that I am biased towards classic routines. However, while the premise is sound, and the results are funny, I personally would have chosen to have the patient go blind instead of deaf.

              In *my* cultural exposure and bias, Sterno, filtered Torpedo Coolant, bad distilling, Prohibition, bathtub Gin, cutting corners, etc. results in Methyl Alcohol consumption, which *will* cause blindness. This is a common tale/myth in our day and age, spanning about 200 years of experience, and in my opinion, has a broad reach to the Audience. Going blind would be a natural conclusion the audience would easily expect and accept.

              So either the writer is either not drawing from the same experience pool as me, *or* is pushing the envelope and decidedly *not* going with the pat answer, in order to poke fun of the "normal" comedic resolution.

              Both "deaf" and "blind" are valid choices for the bit. One has (to me) the potential for a bigger audience based on the experience pool that I believe is around me. If it's indeed going after a more elavated jab at the would-be comic writer, then it narrows the scope of the audience, but is still a prefectly valid choice.

              It's just an example of choices the writer can make, and that experience factors are very important in determining who and how well you reach your audience.

              And contrary to my jabs, yes, I think he/he/they are damn funny... :)
              • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

                Thu, May 12, 2005 - 6:02 AM
                I think you've named a lot of innovators in comedy, and they *do* stand out from the norm in that their methods are contrary to most others in their field.
                _______________________________
                I agree completely with the entirety of your post. I DO believe we are, right now, just short of another comedic innovation which will have a major cultural impact.
                • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

                  Thu, May 12, 2005 - 6:53 AM
                  I have a friend who belongs to a "pie in the face club"
                  maybe these could be organized like the boyscouts
                  or the brownies. Then sold like Avon, or Tupperware.
                  National Conventions, free "Pie in the face" skymiles
                  Not to mention getting a special pen or badge for face pieing
                  up in the air. One could Pie and Parachute. Perhaps it's just
                  a matter of taking an old standard thats been around since
                  the Model t or before and looking at in in a new lightl :o)
                  Innovations over morning coffee...Then of course there's
                  the whole late night, and morning show with food channel
                  t-shirt promotion angle to look at, as well as the Daily show.
  • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

    Wed, May 11, 2005 - 12:42 PM
    Your audience is like a lover or a brother or a sister
    or a parent or a friend
    your mission if you choose to accept it
    is to tickle them without mercy. Their job to keep as straight a
    face as possible. Gay Shock Two women Kissing who turn out
    to be two men in very bad drag totally permissable if you achieve
    the slightest lip quiver that could lead to a Horse laugh or a gaffaw. Small cartoon versions of your self dashing thru obscure
    mazes to arrive in the next sketch is another way of saying and
    Now, for something Completely different. A Large thumb comming
    thru the ceiling and crushing you the main character is called the
    Hand of God at work and Must be avoided at all cost's in a similar
    fashion to The Spanish Inquestion. This tape will self distruct in 10 minutes. And remember I'm Chevy Chase and Your not.
    • Re: Tell me ... what IS funny?

      Wed, May 11, 2005 - 3:40 PM
      Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition,
      not my brother, my lover or my other.
      My gay job is to keep as straight as possible,
      but I appear as a small cartoon version of a large thumb,
      crushing the Hand of God.
      Nobody expects the Sp...oh, bugger!

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